Abortion

[MrJordan]

do you support it?

[kelly.]

Yes if it really can't be cared for.

I feel bad saying yes though

[MrJordan]

This baby, could be the next best thing. Aborting it doesn't even give it a chance! I believe that they should only allow a baby to be aborted in ''special cases'' where for instance the mother is raped by a predator.

They could put the baby up for adoption, giving it a life and hopefully loving adoptive parents.

[kelly.]

Yeah but what about the ones that don't get adopted or don't even get put into an adoption home or w/e?

[MrJordan]

They won't just leave them? They'll be put into the social system.

[Jack.]

I do, I think if somebody really doesn't think they're ready to care for a child then it's there decision. Yes there's the choice of adoption but then there is a risk of the child going to the wrong family and ending up hurt or depressed.

[MrJordan]

I do, I think if somebody really doesn't think they're ready to care for a child then it's there decision. Yes there's the choice of adoption but then there is a risk of the child going to the wrong family and ending up hurt or depressed.

I thought social check and monitor them? :J

[Jack.]

I thought social check and monitor them? :J

Yes but then it's one more thing you have to care about, I know that sounds bad but I don't know how to say what I'm thinking. ???

[Ry.]

I support Abortion only for a few reasons ... Mainly because of teen pregedency..
If two 16/17 year olds Had *** and produced a baby i would say abortion is ok yes.. because honestly those two young teens most likely wont be ready to support a baby.. they may feel terrible for letting it go but they dont have the financial backing or possibly the emotional backing to be ready to love a child and become parents..

[MrJordan]

Yeah abortion with teenagers is different, they need to learn and get a education not be lugging a big bump around.

[Jade.]

Depends on the situation

[Keir]

If you're out having unprotected sex, you deserve to have the burden of a baby. That said, I'm not against abortion. I just prefer it when they see it through and either keep the child or give it to a family who cant have a baby

[Gorgia]

i think its wrong i have to say why kill someone

[Joh]

To some extent yes, I believe it's only the mothers choice to have the abortion or not because It is her body and she has to carry the baby for 9 months. But is aborting selfish to those who can't have babies and want them?

['deccy!]

It all depends on the circumstances, and who you are.


But to sum up, yes.

[Ross!]

Yeah I support it completely, particularly if it prevents a baby being born into a family that can't support it.

[Vicky<3]

I don't support abortion. Even if it's an egg in the womb it's still a form of life, it's still got it's own heart, yes it might not be fully supporting it's own heart beat but it's still breathing. Even if it was an animal,everything is breathing from an early age. I would only say I support an abortion when a mother is in danger of losing her life by giving birth to the child or can receive ill health in the future. It's not right that a child should grow up without a parent.

['deccy!]

What are you saying Vicky? That it's not right only to have one parent? ;s

[Bexter....]

I only support if they have the abortion at the earliest stage possible, it's horrible to have the thought of something growing inside of you and it being to an extent it's like THERE and then killing it.

[Ruth]

Hell no.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, it's murder.

[Vicky<3]

What are you saying Vicky? That it's not right only to have one parent? ;s

No, what I'm saying is that life begins at contraception. You can grow only having one parent and still turn out like any other person with two parents. My point is that if a mother is going to die from giving birth then she shouldn't go through with it, I don't think it's right that a parent should die giving birth.

['deccy!]

That's alright then. :)

[Rosii]

Up to a point, yes, I do. But after 24 weeks, it's like killing a baby.
It's weird why I believe this, considering I'm Catholic...

[BlueTango]

I think the # of weeks that you're allowed to abort until should be lowered.

I also only think abortion is appropriate when both mother and father (if they're both around) agree to it or in special circumstances like rape.

[Lee]

In my opinion, it's entirely up to the people in the situation. The government shouldn't be allowed to legislate how the majority feels about the subject of abortion when it's something that has so many different viewpoints and varies so greatly.

Even in the medical profession there are doctors that agree and disagree to the subject. If the people involved knew they didn't have the funds or emotional support behind them to help raise a baby in the best possible circumstances, than it is up to them and them only to choose how to handle the situation.

Even if there are alternative methods like adoption it's totally up to those involved to make a decision based on their values. I don't like the idea of the law saying "you cannot have an abortion" as it's something left, in my opinion, to personal preference.

[GrownLow]

I'm 100% pro-life.

imo, you're murdering a human life. thats illegal & wrong.

:) the end.

in the wise words of Dr. Seuss..

"A persons a person, no matter how small."

[Maria]

I don't support abortion. Even if it's an egg in the womb it's still a form of life, it's still got it's own heart, yes it might not be fully supporting it's own heart beat but it's still breathing. Even if it was an animal,everything is breathing from an early age.


Hell no.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, it's murder.


I'm 100% pro-life.

imo, you're murdering a human life. thats illegal & wrong.

:) the end.

in the wise words of Dr. Seuss..

"A persons a person, no matter how small."

I completely agree with you all.

Abortion is murder. Life begins at conception.

Not to mention, do you know how many effects abortion can have on the mother? It's just awful. Even in rape, go through and have the baby. Put it up for adoption. Anything is better than taking away that life. Life is our most precious gift.

[Jason]

I am 100% against abortion. It's taking human life. It's wrong.

I absolutely hate when people use abortion as birth control. That is completely messed up. You made the decision to have sex, you should have to face the consequences. That's not saying that I think you should have to raise the baby once you have it, but killing it should NOT be an option. Adoption is ALWAYS there, and it's not a bad option.

Whoever said something about adopted kids being depressed or whatever, I don't mean to be rude, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I was adopted. My biological mother was 17 when I was born. Instead of killing me, she decided to go ahead and have me, but knowing that she was unable to provide the proper care I deserved, she gave me up for adoption and I now I have a pair of loving parents. I couldn't have asked for anyone better, either.

Now, if she would have used abortion as a form of birth control then I wouldn't be sitting here typing this. That's one big reason why I'm so against abortion. It's simply not right. I don't see how people can say it's the mother's choice. For one, you're calling her the mother. Is it okay for a mother to kill her teenage son because he's misbehaving? -- Of course not. I don't see why this is any different, aside from the fact that the baby hasn't been misbehaving.

[MrJordan]

I am 100% against abortion. It's taking human life. It's wrong.

I absolutely hate when people use abortion as birth control. That is completely messed up. You made the decision to have sex, you should have to face the consequences. That's not saying that I think you should have to raise the baby once you have it, but killing it should NOT be an option. Adoption is ALWAYS there, and it's not a bad option.

Whoever said something about adopted kids being depressed or whatever, I don't mean to be rude, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I was adopted. My biological mother was 17 when I was born. Instead of killing me, she decided to go ahead and have me, but knowing that she was unable to provide the proper care I deserved, she gave me up for adoption and I now I have a pair of loving parents. I couldn't have asked for anyone better, either.

Now, if she would have used abortion as a form of birth control then I wouldn't be sitting here typing this. That's one big reason why I'm so against abortion. It's simply not right. I don't see how people can say it's the mother's choice. For one, you're calling her the mother. Is it okay for a mother to kill her teenage son because he's misbehaving? -- Of course not. I don't see why this is any different, aside from the fact that the baby hasn't been misbehaving.

Wow, nice debating! :)

[Jack.]

I am 100% against abortion. It's taking human life. It's wrong.

I absolutely hate when people use abortion as birth control. That is completely messed up. You made the decision to have sex, you should have to face the consequences. That's not saying that I think you should have to raise the baby once you have it, but killing it should NOT be an option. Adoption is ALWAYS there, and it's not a bad option.

Whoever said something about adopted kids being depressed or whatever, I don't mean to be rude, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I was adopted. My biological mother was 17 when I was born. Instead of killing me, she decided to go ahead and have me, but knowing that she was unable to provide the proper care I deserved, she gave me up for adoption and I now I have a pair of loving parents. I couldn't have asked for anyone better, either.

Now, if she would have used abortion as a form of birth control then I wouldn't be sitting here typing this. That's one big reason why I'm so against abortion. It's simply not right. I don't see how people can say it's the mother's choice. For one, you're calling her the mother. Is it okay for a mother to kill her teenage son because he's misbehaving? -- Of course not. I don't see why this is any different, aside from the fact that the baby hasn't been misbehaving.

I did say this knowing I'm not adopted, well hoping but I do agree with what you said but you may of been put with the right people as you said (underlined) but some people may be put with the wrong people.

To be honest I don't know how it works and how well the majority of adoptions go but that's is just the way I think.

;)

[Jason]

If you had any idea the amount of screening, background checks, etc go into adoption, you'd probably think less that way. You don't get "placed" with random people. Getting adopted by bad people is a hell of a lot less likely than getting born into a crappy family (parents who don't give a crap). People who adopt are people who really really want children, not people who treat children like crap.

[Keir]

If you had any idea the amount of screening, background checks, etc go into adoption, you'd probably think less that way. You don't get "placed" with random people. Getting adopted by bad people is a hell of a lot less likely than getting born into a crappy family (parents who don't give a crap). People who adopt are people who really really want children, not people who treat children like crap.

I agree with this. In most areas, adoption ends up being great for the child. It's foster care that's bad. That's when a kid from a bad home leaves/is kicked out and goes into a foster family, which are notorious for being filled with less than reputable characters. Of course, not all foster families are like that. There are good ones too, but unfortunately the check from the government makes some bad people take kids in for the money.

[Meg]

In my opinion, it's entirely up to the people in the situation. The government shouldn't be allowed to legislate how the majority feels about the subject of abortion when it's something that has so many different viewpoints and varies so greatly.

Even in the medical profession there are doctors that agree and disagree to the subject. If the people involved knew they didn't have the funds or emotional support behind them to help raise a baby in the best possible circumstances, than it is up to them and them only to choose how to handle the situation.

Even if there are alternative methods like adoption it's totally up to those involved to make a decision based on their values. I don't like the idea of the law saying "you cannot have an abortion" as it's something left, in my opinion, to personal preference.

This is basically my opinion too.

[!!Rachel!!]

I do not support it sorry! I am against abortion. A girl that I know was 5 months pregnant and she decided to have an abortion! Its like a murder. They should put this as illegal!

[Rttennis]

The better question is, whether you are "pro-choice" or "pro-life", how could anyone be "in support" of abortion? I am pro-choice, but that does not mean I support abortion.

Having said that, I have stated the belief that I am pro-choice for the simple reason of why we are having this debate. If the government controlled the decision making of the family in question, then this thread would be pointless. Who is pregnant with the baby? The mother or the government?

For those who declare that they are "pro-life" and against abortion, I ask you a couple questions. One of the big arguments for being pro-life is the aspect of "abortion is murder." Okay, well then, if you truly feel that abortion is so heinous of a crime to be considered murder, then contact your lawyer, go to your local court building, and call for the arrest, conviction, and jailing of the millions of mothers, fathers, and doctors, who destroyed the lives of such children. Afterall, abortion is murder, and there was motive to kill, they'll be going to jail for a long time for sure. A born Catholic, this is the ultimate flaw of the "murder" argument, that we are courageous enough to point and call these clinicians "murderers", but at the same time too scared to throw them in jail.

Also, again as a born Catholic, I understand the argument that God does not want to kill his children. Believe me, I love my family with all my heart, and I would do anything to protect my little brother and baby sister from harm's way. Having said that, God does not wanting us to do many things according to Scripture. For example, in Exodus, God says it's okay to stone to death any person who works and/or does not rest on the Sabbath Day. I can provide a quote if needed.

Yes, there are bad people out there who take advantage of the system by using abortion as a contraception tool. Well, as we Catholics know, that should be something that should be taken up with them and their Creator. Answer to God, not the "god-like" Government. That is why I am pro-choice.

The difficult decision to abort a child should be in discussion with the family, their priest/rabbi/religious advisor, and their doctor, not white-haired privately-backed old folks in the retirement home known as Congress.

[compositeLegend]

Sadly yes. There are certain circumstances that require abortion. But I don't know entirely. :S

[Henry]

I am against abortion. Simple

[Meg]

For those who are pro-life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnOzFmNac0E

mnOzFmNac0E

[Jason]

She's going to be a great speaker when she gets older. I agree with her completely, by the way. She speaks the truth.

[GrownLow]

I just got the chills. That girl is sooo true, and I love it. It's going on my facebook

[Bucc]

I love people who like to determine what a woman can and can't do to her insides, because you know; she can't think for herself or anything. Because 9 months is nothing and all...
Without abortion the world would be a horrible place.

[Jason]

I love people who like to determine what a woman can and can't do to her insides, because you know; she can't think for herself or anything. Because 9 months is nothing and all...
Without abortion the world would be a horrible place.

Are you a part of your mothers insides? If so, no one should have any problem with removing you right now. Just because you were inside the womb doesn't mean you weren't a living being. The baby isn't just some organ. If it was, when it popped out I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be crying.

You're right, 9 months is a long time, but you know what? She should have thought about that before taking her pants off. Women shouldn't have the right to kill simply because they made a mistake. You make a mistake, you face the consequences. That's how life works.

[Keir]

Are you a part of your mothers insides? If so, no one should have any problem with removing you right now. Just because you were inside the womb doesn't mean you weren't a living being. The baby isn't just some organ. If it was, when it popped out I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be crying.

You're right, 9 months is a long time, but you know what? She should have thought about that before taking her pants off. Women shouldn't have the right to kill simply because they made a mistake. You make a mistake, you face the consequences. That's how life works.

What if a woman was raped? What if she didn't have a choice? Would you have her stare into the little face of the man that ruined her life?


I've stated my opinions already in this thread, but I thought I should get your opinion on that because it doesn't fall into your little speech there.

[GrownLow]

You should watch that video Keir, she talks about the raped girls.

[DANNY]

Well, there are people that don't think about the consequences of having promiscuous sex - they're called idiots, and are unfortunately abundant at this current time.

Some people do not learn from their mistakes, and I know this from first-hand experience.

[Keir]

You should watch that video Keir, she talks about the raped girls.

No she didn't.

She said that only 1% of abortions are for rational reasons and then walked away.

She bypassed the question as she did not have the answers. She didn't even talk about it.

Some of the things she said were true, many abortions are stupid, from having consensual unprotected sex you deserve to get pregnant, give the baby to a nice home.

But rape is different, and until you are raped, until you know what it's like and all of the trauma and depression that follows, you can NEVER tell someone that they have to have their attackers child. You don't know what it's like, I don't know what it's like. So why is it your choice? Who are you to decide when you couldn't even fathom the things they feel?

That little girl didn't explain those one percent. She continued to explain the 99% of abortions which I don't agree with. No one likes abortion, but it's not YOUR right to choose. It's the mother's right to choose, whether we like it or not. And if they can't get it done legally they'll sure as hell get it done illegally.

[GrownLow]

Oh but it is our choice, seeing as it's murder.

you're alright with murder, than, keir?

[Bucc]

Do you really wanna do this?..
Do you really want to bring in murder into this thread?
I'm sure Keir and I could go forever on this subject.

Our bodies are filled with cells,
living cells.
And we kill millions every day.

Guess we're all murders aren't we? (:

[Mark]

A cell is different to an organism, though.

[Keir]

Oh but it is our choice, seeing as it's murder.

you're alright with murder, than, keir?

Every time you take a step you murder a thousand of your cells, micro-organisms and sometimes even insects. Is that murder?
Every time you eat meat, every time you breath you kill. Is that murder?

What makes me or you better than anything else? Why should you or I be better than something that cannot think or breathe? if you're so opposed to the deaths of beings which have not progressed enough to acknowledge their own existence, you'd probably stop doing those things.

Once again Grownlow, you haven't been in that position. You don't know. And you'd better pray you'll never know what it's like. Once again, could you stare into the face of the person who ruined your life? Every day could you care for, feed, and love that face? Would you want a child living in that home?

You don't know Grownlow, and considering science proves that they cannot feel pain at that point it's not hurting anyone but the mother who's choice it was.

You never know what the kid could have been, it could have been the next hitler as easily as it could have cured cancer. We don't know.

Once again, I do not like abortion, but you do not deserve the choice until you're in that position, especially being a man.

Call me a murderer all you'd like. I'll take your crucifixion with a smile on my face and a clear conscience.

[BlueTango]

According to my Oxford Dictionary:

Murder = unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

Abortion isn't unlawful, so how is it murder? And an embryo isn't a human being, so once again it's technically not murder.

[Maria]

Lia is brilliant. I respect everything she has said.

I apologize, Bucc and Keir, but killing "cells" is hardly comparable to killing an fetus that will grow into a human being, if given the chance! And If you're against killing animals, become a vegetarian. that is a whole different issue, here. we eat them to live. do you know why?
because human life is our greatest gift. if we don't eat, we will give that up. and that's the last thing we want to do.

and you're right, she said only ONE PERCENT of abortions are due to rape, incest, or when the mother is in danger.
you're saying abortion is right for those other NINETY-NINE percent?! that's hardly fair.
even those who are raped shouldn't go through with the abortion. who said they need to look at that baby's face everyday? or love it? adoption is always a choice.
And you're right, personally, I can't say i know what a person that has been raped feels. But my friend's boyfriend's sister was raped. and she's as close to me as any of my own kin would be, and also one of my good friends.
She decided to keep the baby.
NOT because we're all strong Catholics, but because she wanted that baby to grow up and live the life as it should. and she's teaching that child about his father, the horrible things he did to her, and what is right and wrong. Is it hard for her? yes. But she's so happy she has him, because not only is he a part of her rapist, but he is a part of her. He is HER CHILD. conceived in her womb, grown in her, and he is so much like her. He's doing well in school, and is one of the politest kids I have ever met. She kept him because she CARES and she knows what is right.

and you heard what Lia said, it's true. 80 PERCENT of people that have abortions wish they would have kept the child! Abortion is a horrible thing! It not only kills the baby, but IT WILL AFFECT YOU. you have such a high percent of complications from abortion. You may never be able to have a kid again! There are physical AND psychological consequences!!

Abortion is the fifth leading cause of maternal death in the United States.
An increased risk of breast, cervical, ovarian and liver cancer.
Complications, such as uterine perforation, cervical laceration, and placenta previa can not only cause very severe problems, but they can also lead to problems in future pregnancies, such as miscarriages, premature births, fetal deaths and children born with handicaps, because any problem or change with a woman's reproductive organs may affect the development of her children.
Infection, including pelvic inflammatory disease, occur in 30% of abortions; if not stopped soon enough, they can leave a woman barren.
Ectopic pregnancies-pregnancies developing in the tube-are increasing because sometimes the uterus is scarred and the fertilized egg, the zygote, cannot get down the tube into the uterus and implant. There's scar tissue there from scraping during previous abortions.
Up to 127% risk for premature births in subsequent pregnancies; the rate is higher with multiple abortions.
2% of women who have abortions suffer life threatening complications, such as bleeding, fever, infections, etc.,


and that's only the physical! there's psychological issues too!!

Diminished respect for human life.
Denial: A sense of relief followed by repressed guilt, sadness, and grieving at the death of the aborted baby that would be a woman's natural, feminine feelings and emotions.
More than 100 different psychological reactions including alcoholism, smoking, drug abuse, eating disorders, sexual addictions, and self-destructive behavior.
Post abortion syndrome -- a series of psychological effects experienced by up to 60% of women, ranging from mild depression to suicide or attempted suicide.
Overwhelming feelings of regret or guilt during later pregnancies.
Flashbacks and nightmares.



And not only is it faith or just a belief that the fetus is a living human being!
Doctors and Scientists have done the research- It's a human life.

In its 1859 Report on Criminal Abortion, the American Medical Association (AMA) understood that "the independent and actual existence of the child before birth as a living being" was a scientific truth.

The Government knows we are killing these babies too.

A 1981 U.S. Senate report states, "Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being - a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers, Ibid.)

Abortion is just horrid. I could never approve of it.

[GrownLow]

oh, oh. ignorance is bliss. yes it is.

[Jason]

Rape is such a small percentage like you said, that I don't base my opinions on abortion simply because of something that rarely happens. You're right, rape is horrible and no one should have to go through anything like that. Especially if they get pregnant from it. However, the chances of that actually happening are slim to none, so using that as an argument as to why abortion is okay isn't very valid.

Even in the case of rape, I don't think killing the baby is okay. No, I don't wish that upon anyone and it's horrible that a woman would have to go through all that, especially because it wasn't her choice. However, in that case, I look at the baby's rights. Even though the baby was conceived under those conditions, it's still a human being and it should have it's right to live.


@BlueTango
If that's the case, then tell me why people get charged with two counts of murder when they kill a pregnant mother. They'll charge you with murder if you kill a woman and the baby, but killing JUST the baby is fine and dandy.

[Keir]

Lia is brilliant. I respect everything she has said.

I apologize, Bucc and Keir, but killing "cells" is hardly comparable to killing an fetus that will grow into a human being, if given the chance! And If you're against killing animals, become a vegetarian. that is a whole different issue, here. we eat them to live. do you know why?
because human life is our greatest gift. if we don't eat, we will give that up. and that's the last thing we want to do.

and you're right, she said only ONE PERCENT of abortions are due to rape, incest, or when the mother is in danger.
you're saying abortion is right for those other NINETY-NINE percent?! that's hardly fair.
even those who are raped shouldn't go through with the abortion. who said they need to look at that baby's face everyday? or love it? adoption is always a choice.
And you're right, personally, I can't say i know what a person that has been raped feels. But my friend's boyfriend's sister was raped. and she's as close to me as any of my own kin would be, and also one of my good friends.
She decided to keep the baby.
NOT because we're all strong Catholics, but because she wanted that baby to grow up and live the life as it should. and she's teaching that child about his father, the horrible things he did to her, and what is right and wrong. Is it hard for her? yes. But she's so happy she has him, because not only is he a part of her rapist, but he is a part of her. He is HER CHILD. conceived in her womb, grown in her, and he is so much like her. He's doing well in school, and is one of the politest kids I have ever met. She kept him because she CARES and she knows what is right.

and you heard what Lia said, it's true. 80 PERCENT of people that have abortions wish they would have kept the child! Abortion is a horrible thing! It not only kills the baby, but IT WILL AFFECT YOU. you have such a high percent of complications from abortion. You may never be able to have a kid again! There are physical AND psychological consequences!!

Abortion is the fifth leading cause of maternal death in the United States.
An increased risk of breast, cervical, ovarian and liver cancer.
Complications, such as uterine perforation, cervical laceration, and placenta previa can not only cause very severe problems, but they can also lead to problems in future pregnancies, such as miscarriages, premature births, fetal deaths and children born with handicaps, because any problem or change with a woman's reproductive organs may affect the development of her children.
Infection, including pelvic inflammatory disease, occur in 30% of abortions; if not stopped soon enough, they can leave a woman barren.
Ectopic pregnancies-pregnancies developing in the tube-are increasing because sometimes the uterus is scarred and the fertilized egg, the zygote, cannot get down the tube into the uterus and implant. There's scar tissue there from scraping during previous abortions.
Up to 127% risk for premature births in subsequent pregnancies; the rate is higher with multiple abortions.
2% of women who have abortions suffer life threatening complications, such as bleeding, fever, infections, etc.,


and that's only the physical! there's psychological issues too!!

Diminished respect for human life.
Denial: A sense of relief followed by repressed guilt, sadness, and grieving at the death of the aborted baby that would be a woman's natural, feminine feelings and emotions.
More than 100 different psychological reactions including alcoholism, smoking, drug abuse, eating disorders, sexual addictions, and self-destructive behavior.
Post abortion syndrome -- a series of psychological effects experienced by up to 60% of women, ranging from mild depression to suicide or attempted suicide.
Overwhelming feelings of regret or guilt during later pregnancies.
Flashbacks and nightmares.



And not only is it faith or just a belief that the fetus is a living human being!
Doctors and Scientists have done the research- It's a human life.


The Government knows we are killing these babies too.


Abortion is just horrid. I could never approve of it.

I stopped reading at the bolded because you clearly did not care enough to read my whole post.

[Maria]

Every time you take a step you murder a thousand of your cells, micro-organisms and sometimes even insects. Is that murder?
Every time you eat meat, every time you breath you kill. Is that murder?
I answered this.
I apologize, Bucc and Keir, but killing "cells" is hardly comparable to killing an fetus that will grow into a human being, if given the chance! And If you're against killing animals, become a vegetarian. that is a whole different issue, here. we eat them to live. do you know why?
because human life is our greatest gift. if we don't eat, we will give that up. and that's the last thing we want to do.


Once again Grownlow, you haven't been in that position. You don't know. And you'd better pray you'll never know what it's like. Once again, could you stare into the face of the person who ruined your life? Every day could you care for, feed, and love that face? Would you want a child living in that home?

I answered this too. you should have read one sentence further.

even those who are raped shouldn't go through with the abortion. who said they need to look at that baby's face everyday? or love it? adoption is always a choice.
And you're right, personally, I can't say i know what a person that has been raped feels. But my friend's boyfriend's sister was raped. and she's as close to me as any of my own kin would be, and also one of my good friends.
She decided to keep the baby.
NOT because we're all strong Catholics, but because she wanted that baby to grow up and live the life as it should. and she's teaching that child about his father, the horrible things he did to her, and what is right and wrong. Is it hard for her? yes. But she's so happy she has him, because not only is he a part of her rapist, but he is a part of her. He is HER CHILD. conceived in her womb, grown in her, and he is so much like her. He's doing well in school, and is one of the politest kids I have ever met. She kept him because she CARES and she knows what is right.

the 99% thing wasn't for you. there are others who clearly didn't get that out of the video.

[Keir]

You're right, I apologize for not reading the rest of it. However my opinion on the subject stands.

[Maria]

as does mine ;P this is a very controversial subject. if everyone agreed, it wouldn't be so controversial ;)

[GrownLow]

Does that mean we're going to agree to disagree on this one?

[Maria]

i think that's all we can do.
i mean, i'm not changing my opinion :P

[Rttennis]

Oh but it is our choice, seeing as it's murder.

you're alright with murder, than, keir?

So as I challenged all of the pro-life anti-abortion supporters out there in my previous post, I ask you to contact your lawyer to seek an arrest warrant for the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who committed this heinous act. If you cannot do that, then this argument is mute. Afterall, abortion is "murder." In fact, if it was murder, then abortion would make the worst crimes in humanity, the Holocaust, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and both World Wars, look like a walk in the park compared to the "death toll" of that abortion. The last number I heard was 1500 abortions a day in the United States. But you refuse to call for the trial of these murderous people?

You have to be careful with this comparison as it does have major ramifications for doing so.


and you're right, she said only ONE PERCENT of abortions are due to rape, incest, or when the mother is in danger.

I want sources for that claim, and by sources, I mean a valid scientific study not from a pro-life advocacy website. The Lia speech, as great and passionate as it was, does not constitute as a researched argument as A.) she didn't provide her source and B.) remember the purpose of the speech, pro-choice and pro-life advocate use numbers to their advantage all the time.


* Abortion is the fifth leading cause of maternal death in the United States.
* An increased risk of breast, cervical, ovarian and liver cancer.
* Complications, such as uterine perforation, cervical laceration, and placenta previa can not only cause very severe problems, but they can also lead to problems in future pregnancies, such as miscarriages, premature births, fetal deaths and children born with handicaps, because any problem or change with a woman's reproductive organs may affect the development of her children.
* Infection, including pelvic inflammatory disease, occur in 30% of abortions; if not stopped soon enough, they can leave a woman barren.
* Ectopic pregnancies-pregnancies developing in the tube-are increasing because sometimes the uterus is scarred and the fertilized egg, the zygote, cannot get down the tube into the uterus and implant. There's scar tissue there from scraping during previous abortions.
* Up to 127% risk for premature births in subsequent pregnancies; the rate is higher with multiple abortions.
* 2% of women who have abortions suffer life threatening complications, such as bleeding, fever, infections, etc.,

So why isn't abortion banned in the United States is my question?

Look, just because I am "pro-choice" does not make me "pro-abortion." If I had the CHOICE, I would choose life. But that's the point. It is my choice, not that of the government. It is also my future wife's choice (goodness forbid we would ever have to make that decision). Why should my Senator, Representative, or President thousands of miles away from me decide what is in the best interests of my family when it comes to starting and raising a family?

Something else to consider, too. I am going to assume that a lot of the pro-life arguments are coming from Catholics or those who trend towards the Catholic stance on the issue. The stance of the Catholic Church is that the baby's life takes precedent over the mother's. (In other words, if it came down to deciding who should live over the other, the baby wins and the mother dies). In Judaism and Islam, and correct me if I am wrong, the mother's life takes precedent over the baby's. Does that make the other religions morally flawed? Are you going to call a person of the Jewish or Islamic faith wrong for their beliefs?

Great debate so far! So many valid arguments on this very controversial issue. Much love to everyone.

[Jason]

So as I challenged all of the pro-life anti-abortion supporters out there in my previous post, I ask you to contact your lawyer to seek an arrest warrant for the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who committed this heinous act. If you cannot do that, then this argument is mute. Afterall, abortion is "murder." In fact, if it was murder, then abortion would make the worst crimes in humanity, the Holocaust, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and both World Wars, look like a walk in the park to the "death toll" of that abortion. The last number I heard was 1500 abortions a day in the United States. But you refuse to call for the trial of these murderous people?
People do get charged for killing unborn babies. On most occasions if someone murders a pregnant woman they'll find themselves facing two counts of murder. I think it SHOULD be considered murder. Unfortunately, it's not. You're viewing term 'murder' from a legal standpoint, while when pro-life people use it, they're meaning it less as a legal term, but rather a term for unjustly killing, legally or otherwise.




I want sources for that claim, and by sources, I mean a valid scientific study not from a pro-life advocacy website. The Lia speech, as great and passionate as it was, does not constitute as a researched argument as A.) she didn't provide her source and B.) remember the purpose of the speech, pro-choice and pro-life advocate use numbers to their advantage all the time.
You realize that pro-choice advocates are just as likely to use 'numbers' to their advantage just as much as anyone else. I don't know the true numbers on this because I can't be bothered to research it right now. I do know that it is a very small percentage of cases where abortions are because of rape OR because it's going to kill the mother. Why can't you find me facts and numbers that say that most abortions are because of rape? I bet you can't.




So why isn't abortion banned in the United States is my question?
Hey, that's my question too. I think it should be. I think it's killing innocent human beings. I consider that murder. You think we'd be having this argument if it WAS already banned? Of course not. That's why it's a controversial subject.




Look, just because I am "pro-choice" does not make me "pro-abortion." If I had the CHOICE, I would choose life. But that's the point. It is my choice, not that of the government. It is also my future wife's choice (goodness forbid we would ever have to make that decision). Why should my Senator, Representative, or President thousands of miles away from me decide what is in the best interests of my family when it comes to starting and raising a family?
Again, like many pro-choice people you fail to think about the rights of the baby. Where is it's choice? A 6 month old baby wouldn't be able to choose for itself either, so before you use that argument, is it okay to kill babies right after they are born? The government chooses to punish those who murder. Shouldn't it be your choice to kill someone if you want?




Something else to consider, too. I am going to assume that a lot of the pro-life arguments are coming from Catholics or those who trend towards the Catholic stance on the issue. The stance of the Catholic Church is that the baby's life takes precedent over the mother's. (In other words, if it came down to deciding who should live over the other, the baby wins and the mother dies). In Judaism and Islam, and correct me if I am wrong, the mother's life takes precedent over the baby's. Does that make the other religions morally flawed? Are you going to call a person of the Jewish or Islamic faith wrong for their beliefs?
I'm not Catholic, nor was I raised around Catholics or in a Catholic community. In most cases, abortions have nothing to do with the mother's life. It's the baby's life. That's why it's called an abortion, because you're aborting the baby, not the mother. The topic of abortion isn't related to any religion, so I don't know why you're trying to drag that into the mix. I don't really see what point you're trying to make with the whole Jewish & Islamic thing. You didn't make a lot of sense with that one.



EDIT: I actually just did some quick Googling, and I went to every site I found, and each one said the same thing. 1% or less of abortions are by rape victims. I mean, here's an article from the NY Times. Granted, it's a bit outdated, but I really don't think a small number like that would jump even in the recent years, simply because it's not that common of a thing.
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/13/us/rape-and-incest-just-1-of-all-abortions.html?pagewanted=1

[Rttennis]

People do get charged for killing unborn babies. On most occasions if someone murders a pregnant woman they'll find themselves facing two counts of murder. I think it SHOULD be considered murder. Unfortunately, it's not. You're viewing term 'murder' from a legal standpoint, while when pro-life people use it, they're meaning it less as a legal term, but rather a term for unjustly killing, legally or otherwise.

You're referring to the Laci Peterson Act, the bill signed into law by George Bush that states that an unborn baby's murder will constitute as an additional count in a court case. However, in that very same bill that was strongly cheered for by pro-life advocates, there are clear exceptions for abortions. I quote from the United States Code:



(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution—

(1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law;
(2) of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child; or
(3) of any woman with respect to her unborn child.

You are right, abortion is an unjustly killing, by definition a murder. No legal-ese about it, just an unjustly killing. And like all unjustly killings, someone needs to do their time, but pro-life advocates refuse to call for the arrest of the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who perform this murder every day, including many families from other religions who believe the very opposite of this view. So by not calling for the arrests, you are either suggesting that some "murders" are justified or that it is not "murder" at all. You cannot have both. Like I said before, you have to be careful to make this comparison.


You realize that pro-choice advocates are just as likely to use 'numbers' to their advantage just as much as anyone else.

Hence why I said in that paragraph that both sides use numbers to their advantage? :P


The government chooses to punish those who murder. Shouldn't it be your choice to kill someone if you want?

So you're advocating that the Government who knows nothing about my family, my worldviews, and my political opinions on issues like these to decide what is right for both the life of the mother and the child? The Government should step in on the affairs of the people who need to make these decisions for themselves? Sounds like "big government" (if not communism) to me.

Thank you for providing the numbers by the way. Much appreciated! :)


I'm not Catholic, nor was I raised around Catholics or in a Catholic community. In most cases, abortions have nothing to do with the mother's life. It's the baby's life. That's why it's called an abortion, because you're aborting the baby, not the mother. The topic of abortion isn't related to any religion, so I don't know why you're trying to drag that into the mix. I don't really see what point you're trying to make with the whole Jewish & Islamic thing. You didn't make a lot of sense with that one.

In response to the first bolded text, who makes the final decision? The mother or the baby? Of course the mother plays a pivotal role in the decision making process, and as fellow supporter Maria said before, the decision to have an abortion has major physical and psychological consequences with the act. The decision effects their being, and you say it does not affect the mother's life?

In response to the second bold point, what do you call "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? And again, of course religion plays a role in this process. Until recently, why did more Catholics tend towards Pro-Life rather than Pro-Choice?

[Jason]

You're referring to the Laci Peterson Act, the bill signed into law by George Bush that states that an unborn baby's murder will constitute as an additional count in a court case. However, in that very same bill that was strongly cheered for by pro-life advocates, there are clear exceptions for abortions. I quote from the United States Code:



You are right, abortion is an unjustly killing, by definition a murder. No legal-ese about it, just an unjustly killing. And like all unjustly killings, someone needs to do their time, but pro-life advocates refuse to call for the arrest of the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who perform this murder every day, including many families from other religions who believe the very opposite of this view. So by not calling for the arrests, you are either suggesting that some "murders" are justified or that it is not "murder" at all. You cannot have both. Like I said before, you have to be careful to make this comparison.
There are many people who think people who preform abortions should be sitting in prison for murder. I think it should be a crime. Right now though, it's not illegal, so calling for an arrest would be like me calling for someone to be arrested for an overweight woman wearing skin-tight clothes that are entirely too small for her, thus having her gut hanging out (which by the way I think should be totally illegal). Rather than calling for arrests of these people, pro-life advocates tend to focus more on making it illegal first before going after those doing it.




So you're advocating that the Government who knows nothing about my family, my worldviews, and my political opinions on issues like these to decide what is right for both the life of the mother and the child? The Government should step in on the affairs of the people who need to make these decisions for themselves? Sounds like "big government" (if not communism) to me.
I'm saying the government controls certain aspects of everyones life. Such as, not letting people run ramped in the streets killing and stealing. If the government didn't interfere, we'd have chaos and total anarchy, which isn't a good thing, regardless of how much you hate the government. I'm a conservative, I'm all for small government unlike liberals, but I don't think that preventing murder is promoting 'big government'. If you think laws against that sounds like communism, then I think we need to have a talk! Regardless of whether or not the government knows anything about your life, it isn't right for you to be able to kill your neighbor because you didn't like the way he looked at your car. It's the same thing when it comes to killing your unborn child, just as it would your born child.




In response to the first bolded text, who makes the final decision? The mother or the baby? Of course the mother plays a pivotal role in the decision making process, and as fellow supporter Maria said before, the decision to have an abortion has major physical and psychological consequences with the act. The decision effects their being, and you say it does not affect the mother's life?
You failed to include part of my previous post. The baby doesn't have a choice when it is killed. Obviously, it's not a question you can ask and get a response, just as you couldn't with a 6 month old baby. They aren't going to speak up and say "No, mommy! Please don't kill me!" Yes, obviously the decision either way is going to effect them, but when I said abortion has nothing to do with the mothers life, I was more speaking in terms of physically harming her, much like abortion physically harms the baby. Emotionally, definitely. Whether it's keeping or aborting, the mother is going to face extreme emotionally stress, that's what it comes with.




In response to the second bold point, what do you call "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? And again, of course religion plays a role in this process. Until recently, why did more Catholics tend towards Pro-Life rather than Pro-Choice?
I call that one of the Ten Commandments. Your point being? I'm pretty sure murder is frowned upon just about everywhere you go in the world, regardless of their religion. It's against the law in the US, not because of any religion, but because it's wrong. As for your Catholic question, I haven't a clue. I'm not Catholic. It might be because of their religion, but not everyone who is pro-life is pro-life because of any religion or faith. It might influence some, but I know atheists who are avid pro-life supporters, so that's not always a deciding factor.

[ilorenaa]

Yes if it really can't be cared for.

I feel bad saying yes though


Thats soo mean.. i know you feel bad but still your killing another human being so basically its murder. i think its wrong. you shouldnt kill a baby as they havnt done anything and you did it so you were aware of the outcomes so its rude!!!

[Rttennis]

There are many people who think people who preform abortions should be sitting in prison for murder. I think it should be a crime. Right now though, it's not illegal, so calling for an arrest would be like me calling for someone to be arrested for an overweight woman wearing skin-tight clothes that are entirely too small for her, thus having her gut hanging out (which by the way I think should be totally illegal). Rather than calling for arrests of these people, pro-life advocates tend to focus more on making it illegal first before going after those doing it.

Yes, abortion is not illegal, but murder is, so again, I asked you why you won't call for the arrest of the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who killed these innocent person, and you didn't even answer.



I'm saying the government controls certain aspects of everyones life. Such as, not letting people run ramped in the streets killing and stealing. If the government didn't interfere, we'd have chaos and total anarchy, which isn't a good thing, regardless of how much you hate the government. I'm a conservative, I'm all for small government unlike liberals, but I don't think that preventing murder is promoting 'big government'. If you think laws against that sounds like communism, then I think we need to have a talk! Regardless of whether or not the government knows anything about your life, it isn't right for you to be able to kill your neighbor because you didn't like the way he looked at your car. It's the same thing when it comes to killing your unborn child, just as it would your born child.

I never said that I hated the government, all I said is that I do not trust white-haired Congressman who I only know from the images on my screen with decisions that should only be made by my family in consultation with my priest. Meanwhile, you think that it is okay for people like Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid to make these decisions on my behalf, and that is why I made my big government comment.

In regards to your comment on preventing murder being communist, again, twisting my words around to prove a point. I never said that preventing murder promotes big government. What I said was relying on untrustworthy lawyers to make decisions on the life of both the mother and the child is big government.


You failed to include part of my previous post. The baby doesn't have a choice when it is killed. Obviously, it's not a question you can ask and get a response, just as you couldn't with a 6 month old baby. They aren't going to speak up and say "No, mommy! Please don't kill me!" Yes, obviously the decision either way is going to effect them, but when I said abortion has nothing to do with the mothers life, I was more speaking in terms of physically harming her, much like abortion physically harms the baby. Emotionally, definitely. Whether it's keeping or aborting, the mother is going to face extreme emotionally stress, that's what it comes with.

Then you haven't read Mariaaa's post on the physical and emotional effects of abortion on the mother. Did you know that through an abortion, a mother could develop many forms of cancer? Check it out. Abortion has consequences for both the mother and the baby, we can both agree on that.


I call that one of the Ten Commandments. Your point being? I'm pretty sure murder is frowned upon just about everywhere you go in the world, regardless of their religion. It's against the law in the US, not because of any religion, but because it's wrong.

Then my question again becomes why is abortion such a controversial topic and a subject of much debate today? If it's murder, then it should be agreed by majority that this needs to stop. Pro-choice and pro-life advocates can agree that neither group are pro-abortion (I have made the "choice" to say no to abortion). Unlike the heinous homicides and crimes of humanity, abortion is not taken as lightly as first and second degrees. Sensible people don't just go to the local clinic and ask the doctor to cut them open. This is in consultation with their doctor, their families, and their priests or rabbis. Especially if you are a Catholic, religion absolutely plays a role in this decision. WWJD.

Ultimately the question is not really "Do you support abortion?" The question really is "Who is carrying the baby? The mother or the government?"

Great debating TheOne! I like having this discussion with you and everyone here!

[Maria]

yes, i realize this response is a month later, but no point in opening up a new debate on this topic so here we go ;P


Yes, abortion is not illegal, but murder is, so again, I asked you why you won't call for the arrest of the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who killed these innocent person, and you didn't even answer.

We can't call for the arrest as the government doesn't recognize abortion as murder. However, that does not mean that it's not murder. Think, when a pregnant woman is murdered, the murderer is charged with two account of murder. The government is a bit of a hypocrite, aren't they?



I never said that I hated the government, all I said is that I do not trust white-haired Congressman who I only know from the images on my screen with decisions that should only be made by my family in consultation with my priest. Meanwhile, you think that it is okay for people like Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid to make these decisions on my behalf, and that is why I made my big government comment.

In regards to your comment on preventing murder being communist, again, twisting my words around to prove a point. I never said that preventing murder promotes big government. What I said was relying on untrustworthy lawyers to make decisions on the life of both the mother and the child is big government.
you do not want the government to make this decision for you, yet it's fine if they make others? i mean, you can't assist with suicide. even if the person wants to be killed, is it right? hardly. and the government made it illegal. you can choose to kill a life inside you, but you can't take your own? should the government be able to control that? it's your life, after all. The government also makes decisions such as making you go to school and such. Is that right? We all say yes, you need to learn! But should they be able to control that about you? Another one- women can't be drafted. this applies more to the feminist side. why are we so different? men and women are supposed to be treated as equals now, but we aren't completely. so men can be called to the war, but they won't draft the women. so the men have no choice in saying if they want to go to the war or not. is that right? do you agree with that? why don't they have a choice if a draft is initiated? but again, the women have a choice to kill a potential life? Can you see what i mean? they already take away so many of our "choices". why is this different?


Then my question again becomes why is abortion such a controversial topic and a subject of much debate today? If it's murder, then it should be agreed by majority that this needs to stop. Pro-choice and pro-life advocates can agree that neither group are pro-abortion (I have made the "choice" to say no to abortion). Unlike the heinous homicides and crimes of humanity, abortion is not taken as lightly as first and second degrees. Sensible people don't just go to the local clinic and ask the doctor to cut them open. This is in consultation with their doctor, their families, and their priests or rabbis. Especially if you are a Catholic, religion absolutely plays a role in this decision. WWJD.
It's such a controversial topic because many feel that they should have the choice to abort the baby or not, and many feel that it is murder and that their shouldn't be a choice. It's controversial because the two sides cannot agree.
To be completely honest, most pre-choice people i've talked to on this subject are pro-choice because they want to have the option there in case they mess up. They don't think it's right, but when it comes to them it's fine. Such a selfish reason to kill another potential life, isn't it? but that's how it is. They don't want the option to be taken away because if they were to get pregnant it means they have to deal with the time they are pregnant, their body image is ruined, maybe it was a one-night stand, they aren't ready, etc. We all know the excuses. and many of them are good ones, but is it worth another life? really? they just want it there to bail themselves out of trouble. and this isn't a statistic or anything, just the majority opinion of those i've talked to.


Ultimately the question is not really "Do you support abortion?" The question really is "Who is carrying the baby? The mother or the government?"
Sorry, i disagree with you there, ricky :P again, referring to all the other decisions the government makes for us- how is this any different?

[!!.Candy.!!]

I am highly against abortion. Murder is illegal, abortion should be too. It's not right to kill an innocent person, especially one who hasn't even seen the world yet. :( Poor little babies... what has the world come to now days?

This is where we need Michael Jackson. ;)

[Xoflesh]

I don't support it but I don't disregard of it. I think it's up to the person who is carrying the baby themselves to decide if they want to abort or not, I personally don't think it's anyone else's business.
Also I think calling it MURDER is pretty far-fetched considering it's hardly even a life yet, (depending on how early the person decides to abort). If it was actually murder i'm pretty sure it WOULD be illegal and not just frowned upon as it is now. The catholic church frown upon it the most, but let's be honest, what DON'T they frown upon these days?
I just think this is one of the typical debates where people get themselves involved and make a big deal out of it, expanding it to such things as calling it murder and saying it should be illegal etc... No, it shouldn't because you can only take the abortion pill to a certain extent of it's age, so if it was about a month old or over an abortion pill wouldn't be an option (I don't think) as the baby has grown enough for it to be actually classed as murder.
However I think simply disposing of an egg inside your body, (which is when most of the people decide to abort) isn't murder. This is just MY opinion, please don't look down on me because I don't think what the catholic church and half of the nation tell me to think.

[Jason]

I don't support it but I don't disregard of it. I think it's up to the person who is carrying the baby themselves to decide if they want to abort or not, I personally don't think it's anyone else's business.
Also I think calling it MURDER is pretty far-fetched considering it's hardly even a life yet, (depending on how early the person decides to abort). If it was actually murder i'm pretty sure it WOULD be illegal and not just frowned upon as it is now. The catholic church frown upon it the most, but let's be honest, what DON'T they frown upon these days?
I just think this is one of the typical debates where people get themselves involved and make a big deal out of it, expanding it to such things as calling it murder and saying it should be illegal etc... No, it shouldn't because you can only take the abortion pill to a certain extent of it's age, so if it was about a month old or over an abortion pill wouldn't be an option (I don't think) as the baby has grown enough for it to be actually classed as murder.
However I think simply disposing of an egg inside your body, (which is when most of the people decide to abort) isn't murder. This is just MY opinion, please don't look down on me because I don't think what the catholic church and half of the nation tell me to think.

If it wasn't a life, then there wouldn't be an issue. If there wasn't a life, there wouldn't be anything to abort in the first place. If it wasn't a life, why do people get charged with two counts of murder if they kill a pregnant woman? I know that's been brought up a few times in this topic, but no one has seemed to address it yet. It IS taking a life.

It's not just 'disposing' of an egg. It's a fetus, which is a living being. Oh, and for the record, I'm not Catholic nor do I follow what the Catholic church teaches. So don't think that it's just Catholics who are against abortion.

[Imagine]

I really hate this topic, only because it always ends up going around in circles, but I figured I'd post my opinion anyway: I am most definitely pro-choice.

Let me break it down with a metaphor: Having an unplanned pregnancy is like getting into a car accident. Every time I have sex, I am not choosing to become pregnant. I am aware of the risks of sex, and take the proper precautions. If I were to become pregnant then I'd have the choice to abort, adopt, or keep. Every time I get in a car, I know the risks and take the proper precautions. If I were to get into an accident, does that mean I deserved it and should deal with the consequences? Birth control methods do fail - they are never 100% affective, even with more than one method being used.

And a lot of the teen pregnancies can pretty much be blamed on the parents, and the school systems. A lot of parents generally are aware that their kids receive Sex Ed at some point in their education, so they leave it up to the school. However, most schools are not teaching about safe sex - they are teaching about abstinence. They throw around pictures of STDs and how you catch them, and then end it all with a "safe sex for marriage". This is mostly due to the fact that the churches have the government by their "jewels". However, this is ironic because a lot (not all) of anti-abortion views stem from religious communities. But by not receiving proper sex education, all that's happening is that under-educated teens are having risky sex, and thus producing more unplanned pregnancies, a lot of which end with abortion. Teenagers are going to have sex, whether they are educated or not, and this has been painfully proven time and time again.

Another point I'd like to touch on is the fact that abortion is a lot cheaper than prenatal care and delivery fees alone. An abortion runs generally around...say $100-$200.

"According to a 2003 report by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ), a part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the average amount charged to patients for prenatal and postnatal care was $133 per visit.

Therefore, 14 appointments at a cost of $133 each adds up to $1,862. "

And.

"The AHRQ found that a mother's average stay in the hospital for an uncomplicated vaginal birth was about 2 days. For a cesarean section delivery without complications, moms stayed in the hospital about 3 1/2 days.3

Costs associated with vaginal and C-section births (with and without complications) are as follows:

* Vaginal delivery without complication = $6,200
* Vaginal delivery with complication = $8,200
* C-section without complication = $11,500
* C-section with complication = $15,500"

So sometimes, even if the woman would gladly deliver the child, it is simply not affordable.

And to end with, I'd like to point out to those who are saying that abortion is "murder" and should be illegal: Illegalizing abortion would make it to where women would turn to unsafe procedures to terminate the child or end up with a mentally or physically retarded child.

[Keir]

If it wasn't a life, then there wouldn't be an issue. If there wasn't a life, there wouldn't be anything to abort in the first place. If it wasn't a life, why do people get charged with two counts of murder if they kill a pregnant woman? I know that's been brought up a few times in this topic, but no one has seemed to address it yet. It IS taking a life.

It's not just 'disposing' of an egg. It's a fetus, which is a living being. Oh, and for the record, I'm not Catholic nor do I follow what the Catholic church teaches. So don't think that it's just Catholics who are against abortion.

we have been addressing it this entire time.

The fetus cannot feel pain and doesn't have the brain power to acknowledge it's existence as a sentient being.

[nwilliams]

Really that is too bad. Abortion must not be supported. There are various problems through this process. Killing the baby inside the wound is not right. May be this baby brings great future for you. May be that baby can finished your all the sorrows. Might be a baby would found lucky for you.

[Brandissimo]

I do not.

Reason being; if you are willing to have sex, and you do not wish to have a child but it ends up happening, Its the chance you have to take. Of course it is hard and would be hard to support, but you can not just deny human life in my opinion.

Adoptions after birth could be in order, rather than turning down human life.

[Ceio]

I surpport it becuase if somone young does great preg it's one of the best choices they have. I know my friend got Preg at 14 and she had an abortion and i think if she didn't she would be destroyed and have no friends.

[kay.vee]

I COULD post the seven page research paper with a Works Cited and Bibliography here on the topic of Abortion, from the Pro-Life perspective. But I think that would be a bit much for you all to read.

Instead, I'll just post bits and pieces.

All of the italicized writing are excerpts from my own research paper.

According to an article in the British Telegraph newspaper, in January of 2008, a woman killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant. She left a note saying: “I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum” (Jamieson 1).
Clearly in this instance, abortion did not make the woman's life better. Many women have an abortion due to the fact that it would practically ruin their lives. Well, in this case, abortion LITERALLY ruined this woman's life.

This excerpt refers to the Roe v. Wade debate. The prosecutors are supporting abortion, while the defending attorneys are not.
The defending attorneys used the fourteenth amendment against the prosecutors, saying that the fetus has a life, and that should be protected by the law as well. Also, the defending attorneys argued that the rights of the fetus should be balanced with a woman’s right (Hillstrom 42).
Many people claim that it is a woman's right to do what ever she wants with her own body. What is more sacred: a person's right to have control over their body, or another person's life? And if you go with the first option, why doesn't the fetus have the right to have control over their own body? The fetus is living in the woman, but that's nature. The fetus can't do anything about it. The fetus is under the sole protection of the woman whose womb is "housing" it. The irony in that statement is that it is the woman who decides to commit the abortion.

Some may argue that life does not begin at that stage [the fetal stage]. However, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith’s Declaration of Procured Abortion states that “from that time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of that father nor the mother; it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth” (Paul 3).
The fetus is living. Killing the fetus is murder. It is as simple as that.

Smoking and drinking while pregnant is considered socially unacceptable, for it harms the fetus inside the pregnant mother. If smoking and drinking is deemed morally wrong because it harms human beings, why would abortion be any different?
Are Pro-Choice advocates just being hypocritical?

If murder is viewed as wrong, abortion should be, too. After all, abortion is murder. 77% of Americans agree that abortion is the taking of a human life, if not murder itself (Forsythe 2). Assuming Pro-Choice supporters represent more than 33% of the American population, it is hypocritical for them to support abortion, and not support murder itself.
In regards to my previous response, I suppose, yes. Pro-Choice advocates are simply hypocritical.

Many women abort due to not being able to provide a decent lifestyle (Paul 2), but living with a poor lifestyle is better than not living at all.
I don't know about any of you, but I would much rather live a poor life, rather than no live at all. Life is sacred.

It is the mother’s job to feed the fetus, to nurture the fetus, so that it is able to grow. Abortion reverses the process of nature, and instead of nurturing the fetus, it kills the fetus. When have humans ever been given the right to defy nature and go against its processes and cycles?
Abortion defies nature. Why are humans now apparently allowed to go against nature? No other specie has abortion. Why should we?

Women who abort have an increased incidence of depression, anxiety, and suicide (Mealey 3).
If abortion is in existence to improve a woman's life, then doesn't this statement completely void that reasoning?

The next two excerpts are rather long. I am not going to respond to it. I feel that I explained it thoroughly in my research paper.
Those who support the Pro-Choice movement must have so much faith in future generations, that they are willing to risk the potential in millions of lives, simply so that the mother can maintain her ideal lifestyle, right? Seems like a silly thought, most would agree. But when facts are pieced together, it seems only logical for that to be the belief of many Pro-Choice supporters. Each year, 75 million women have unwanted pregnancies (Rights 1). If each woman were to have an abortion, the amount of potential in future generations would plummet. It’s unimaginable how life would be different if, decades ago, 75 million people were not in existence. Future Olympian gold medalists could be killed; future noble peace prize winners could be killed; future inventors could be killed.

Pro-Choice supporters also claimed that abortion prevents child abuse rates. In 1973, 46 million children were killed via abortion; statistics showed that child abuse rates did not show a distinct fall (Mealey 1). Abortion advocates are lying, solely to gain more supporters. It seems like a desperate attempt to gain supporters for such a “worthy, respectful” cause.


And just for those who feel it necessary to check sources, here you are. My apologies for not putting the URL in the citation. The updated Modern Language Association (MLA) format has changed it so that the URL is not required in a citation. All citations are by the MLA format.

Work Cited
Forsythe, Clarke D. “The ‘Necessary Evil’ Argument Does Not Justify Abortion.” Opposing Viewpoints: Abortion. Ed. Mary E. Williams. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2002. Opposing Viewpoints Reource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

Hillstrom, Laurie Collier. Roe v. Wade. Michigan: Omnigraphics, 2008. Print.

Jamieson, Alastair. “Woman Commits Suicide After Abortion.” Telegraph.Co.Uk. 18 May
2010.

Mealey, Misty. “Abortion is a Social Failure.” Current Controversies: The Abortion Controvesy. Ed. Emma Bernay. Detroit: Greenhaven Press, 2007. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

Paul, John II. “Abortion is Immoral.” Opposing Viewpoints: Abortion. Ed. Tamara L. Roleff. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 1997. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

Rights, Center for Reproductive. “Abortion is a Woman’s Right.” At Issue: The Ethics of Abortion. Ed. Christine Watkins. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2005. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 29 April 2010.

Society. “Abortion Rights Harm Society.” Current Controversies: the Abortion Controversy. Ed. Lynette Knapp. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2001. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

[Maria]

I surpport it becuase if somone young does great preg it's one of the best choices they have. I know my friend got Preg at 14 and she had an abortion and i think if she didn't she would be destroyed and have no friends.
here's my argument though,
did she learn from what happened?
did she stop having pre-marital sex and learn from her past mistakes?
or did she use abortion as her way out... and then continue to have sex. that's what pisses me off.


I COULD post the seven page research paper with a Works Cited and Bibliography here on the topic of Abortion, from the Pro-Life perspective. But I think that would be a bit much for you all to read.
LOL i did a research paper on it too! good stuff.


According to an article in the British Telegraph newspaper, in January of 2008, a woman killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant. She left a note saying: “I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum” (Jamieson 1).
Clearly in this instance, abortion did not make the woman's life better. Many women have an abortion due to the fact that it would practically ruin their lives. Well, in this case, abortion LITERALLY ruined this woman's life.
Truth. Many mothers regret their decision. I've read about that too. postpartum depression or something like that can also occur in the mother.


Some may argue that life does not begin at that stage [the fetal stage]. However, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith’s Declaration of Procured Abortion states that “from that time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of that father nor the mother; it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth” (Paul 3).
The fetus is living. Killing the fetus is murder. It is as simple as that.
Again, I agree completely. Good sources for this one, too.


Smoking and drinking while pregnant is considered socially unacceptable, for it harms the fetus inside the pregnant mother. If smoking and drinking is deemed morally wrong because it harms human beings, why would abortion be any different?
Are Pro-Choice advocates just being hypocritical?
Again, this is a good find! They are, if it's them who made this law or whatever. But if you're getting an abortion, it should happen early into the pregnancy, so while it's "socially unacceptable" to smoke or drink while pregnant, many won't realize that person is pregnant before they have their abortion.


If murder is viewed as wrong, abortion should be, too. After all, abortion is murder. 77% of Americans agree that abortion is the taking of a human life, if not murder itself (Forsythe 2).] Assuming Pro-Choice supporters represent more than 33% of the American population, it is hypocritical for them to support abortion, and not support murder itself.
In regards to my previous response, I suppose, yes. Pro-Choice advocates are simply hypocritical.
really good find. a lot of Americans that I've read about/talked to seem to usually be "on the fence" about abortion... not really sure what side they should take, therefore coming across as hypocrites. Most don't like the way abortion sounds, but like having the option there in case they screw up.


Women who abort have an increased incidence of depression, anxiety, and suicide (Mealey 3).
If abortion is in existence to improve a woman's life, then doesn't this statement completely void that reasoning?
that's the thing! many people don't realize all of the negative effects abortion has on a woman. they simply think it's a reason to fix their mistake and set their life back to normal. many times, this is not the result and they do suffer from some type of mental disorder after, with differing severities of course.



Pro-Choice supporters also claimed that abortion prevents child abuse rates. In 1973, 46 million children were killed via abortion; statistics showed that child abuse rates did not show a distinct fall (Mealey 1). Abortion advocates are lying, solely to gain more supporters. It seems like a desperate attempt to gain supporters for such a “worthy, respectful” cause.
good point, i never heard pro-choice supporters mention that before, but you have a good argument.



And just for those who feel it necessary to check sources, here you are. My apologies for not putting the URL in the citation. The updated Modern Language Association (MLA) format has changed it so that the URL is not required in a citation. All citations are by the MLA format.

Work Cited
Forsythe, Clarke D. “The ‘Necessary Evil’ Argument Does Not Justify Abortion.” Opposing Viewpoints: Abortion. Ed. Mary E. Williams. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2002. Opposing Viewpoints Reource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

Hillstrom, Laurie Collier. Roe v. Wade. Michigan: Omnigraphics, 2008. Print.

Jamieson, Alastair. “Woman Commits Suicide After Abortion.” Telegraph.Co.Uk. 18 May
2010.

Mealey, Misty. “Abortion is a Social Failure.” Current Controversies: The Abortion Controvesy. Ed. Emma Bernay. Detroit: Greenhaven Press, 2007. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

Paul, John II. “Abortion is Immoral.” Opposing Viewpoints: Abortion. Ed. Tamara L. Roleff. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 1997. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.

Rights, Center for Reproductive. “Abortion is a Woman’s Right.” At Issue: The Ethics of Abortion. Ed. Christine Watkins. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2005. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 29 April 2010.

Society. “Abortion Rights Harm Society.” Current Controversies: the Abortion Controversy. Ed. Lynette Knapp. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2001. Opposing Viewpoints Resource Center. Gale. Web. 28 April 2010.
lol, i hate MLA. such a pain when I did my research paper on mental illnesses a few weeks ago.

great sources, though. A lot of people will appreciate these. you had some awesome points!

[Brighde]

I support it.
depends on the situation, if i had a kid at the age i am now i wouldn't be able to support it.
But abortion is a last resort 3 months into pregnancy you get an abortion therfore your killing the baby but if you get a certain pill (forgot what its called T-T'') within the first month of being pregnant you wont be killing anything because it isnt alive or living yet. Most people who get pregnant at a young age are mostly uneducated about the subject of sex they dont know anything.

[kay.vee]

I support it.
depends on the situation, if i had a kid at the age i am now i wouldn't be able to support it.
But abortion is a last resort 3 months into pregnancy you get an abortion therfore your killing the baby but if you get a certain pill (forgot what its called T-T'') within the first month of being pregnant you wont be killing anything because it isnt alive or living yet. Most people who get pregnant at a young age are mostly uneducated about the subject of sex they dont know anything.

So your justification is that abortion is only acceptable with young mothers who aren't educated enough?

[Brighde]

So your justification is that abortion is only acceptable with young mothers who aren't educated enough?

No im not i think young mothers who arnt educated enough are idiots tbh
so they can get an abortion if they like but i dont think highly of them
if you get what i mean

[Rttennis]

A lot of quotes since I have last seen this discussion, and I may not be able to get to them all, but I will try and come back later with more. :P


Really that is too bad. Abortion must not be supported. There are various problems through this process. Killing the baby inside the wound is not right. May be this baby brings great future for you. May be that baby can finished your all the sorrows. Might be a baby would found lucky for you.

And in the event that the mother's life is in jeopardy, killing the mother is?


I do not.

Reason being; if you are willing to have sex, and you do not wish to have a child but it ends up happening, Its the chance you have to take. Of course it is hard and would be hard to support, but you can not just deny human life in my opinion.

Adoptions after birth could be in order, rather than turning down human life.

Would you rather have a rich family who can obviously support a child be given the choice to have an abortion (not necessarily have it but given the option)? Or would you rather a poor family with no shelter, food, or means to support a child be forced to have a baby to have the "chance" of bearing a child? Which one is more likely, in your mind, to deny a decent human life to a baby?


According to an article in the British Telegraph newspaper, in January of 2008, a woman killed herself after aborting her twins when she was eight weeks pregnant. She left a note saying: “I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum” (Jamieson 1).
Clearly in this instance, abortion did not make the woman's life better. Many women have an abortion due to the fact that it would practically ruin their lives. Well, in this case, abortion LITERALLY ruined this woman's life.

No one in this entire thread has ever made the argument that an abortion would be "better" for the woman, and your case proves that point. As a pro-choice advocate, I have made the choice of not supporting abortion, and I have never stated that having an abortion is better than bearing a child. This is only a statement on why you should not have an abortion but not whether or not it should be illegal.


Many people claim that it is a woman's right to do what ever she wants with her own body. What is more sacred: a person's right to have control over their body, or another person's life? And if you go with the first option, why doesn't the fetus have the right to have control over their own body? The fetus is living in the woman, but that's nature. The fetus can't do anything about it. The fetus is under the sole protection of the woman whose womb is "housing" it. The irony in that statement is that it is the woman who decides to commit the abortion.

So your argument is that since the fetus is living inside the woman as apart of nature, then a woman's right to decide what is best for both the mother and the child should be disregarded.

Consider the following scenario (and a little bit of anatomy trivia): In a normal pregnancy, when a baby is conceived, it travels down the woman's fallopian tube from the ovary into the uterus. However, there have been many documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy, where the baby does not make down to the uterus, but gets stuck in the fallopian tube. Treated, the baby must be "aborted." Left untreated, both the mother and the fetus would be killed. Treated or not, the baby is most likely not going to survive.

What's more "sacred": Allowing the mother to live and conceive another child by doing the treatment? Or fighting for the fetus's rights and killing both the mother and child? I hope you choose the second option; afterall, the fetus should "have the right to control their own body."


The fetus is living. Killing the fetus is murder. It is as simple as that.

I am a Roman Catholic, and being on both sides of the debate in my lifetime, this argument is the oldest one in the books.

As I challenged all of the pro-life anti-abortion supporters out there in my previous post, contact your lawyer to seek an arrest warrant for the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who committed this heinous act. If you cannot do that, then this argument is mute.

The last number I heard was 1500 abortions a day in the United States. But you refuse to call for the trial of these murderous people? You have to be careful with this comparison as it does have major ramifications for doing so.


Smoking and drinking while pregnant is considered socially unacceptable, for it harms the fetus inside the pregnant mother. If smoking and drinking is deemed morally wrong because it harms human beings, why would abortion be any different?
Are Pro-Choice advocates just being hypocritical?

If murder is viewed as wrong, abortion should be, too. After all, abortion is murder. 77% of Americans agree that abortion is the taking of a human life, if not murder itself (Forsythe 2). Assuming Pro-Choice supporters represent more than 33% of the American population, it is hypocritical for them to support abortion, and not support murder itself.
In regards to my previous response, I suppose, yes. Pro-Choice advocates are simply hypocritical.

Pick one: Smoking and drinking during the pregnancy is either "socially unacceptable" or "morally wrong"? Not both.

Second, two things. First, you know how I can tell the numbers were not actual stats? Because 77 + 33 does not equal 100%, so something seems wrong in the analysis. Second, so murder = wrong; abortion = wrong; but abortion = murder?

If that's the case, then Jello = dessert; Ice cream = dessert; therefore Jello = Ice cream. Same logic.

So tell me, how does this establish the hypocracy of the pro-choice movement?

To summarize all of this, a person who advocates on behalf of pro-choice is not necessarily in favor of abortion. I'm a Roman Catholic, and I would never advocate abortion. The question is about who should make the choice. I believe that a woman is entitled to the right to make a decision on behalf of both her and the child in consultation with her family and priest. Should we allow people like President Obama to make this decision for us?

[Maria]

I am a Roman Catholic, and being on both sides of the debate in my lifetime, this argument is the oldest one in the books.

As I challenged all of the pro-life anti-abortion supporters out there in my previous post, contact your lawyer to seek an arrest warrant for the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who committed this heinous act. If you cannot do that, then this argument is mute.

The last number I heard was 1500 abortions a day in the United States. But you refuse to call for the trial of these murderous people? You have to be careful with this comparison as it does have major ramifications for doing so.
You've said this before, so I'll type my response again.
I'm sure if many pro-lifers had the ability to call for the trials, they would. The argument is not mute, just because there isn't the ability or money to do so.


Should we allow people like President Obama to make this decision for us? We are already! He makes the decision to let us have abortions... am I right? either way, there's a decision he makes for us, my friend :)

[Rttennis]

You've said this before, so I'll type my response again.
I'm sure if many pro-lifers had the ability to call for the trials, they would. The argument is not mute, just because there isn't the ability or money to do so.

Name one pro-lifer who called for trials of the mothers and doctors who killed 1500 children a day. It's impossible because if they did, then there would be more mothers and doctors in prison for abortion than all other crimes combined.

And you DO have the physical and moral ability to do so, abortion IS murder afterall, and murder is worthy of a trial.


We are already! He makes the decision to let us have abortions... am I right? either way, there's a decision he makes for us, my friend

I'm not talking about passive decision-making, I'm talking about a specific law that makes abortions illegal or legal (welcome to Roe v Wade). :)

[Maria]

Name one pro-lifer who called for trials of the mothers and doctors who killed 1500 children a day. It's impossible because if they did, then there would be more mothers and doctors in prison for abortion than all other crimes combined.

And you DO have the physical and moral ability to do so, abortion IS murder afterall, and murder is worthy of a trial.
There may be one, but looking for it would be pointless as my point is that it'd be ridiculous to.
Why would you try 1500 doctors and mothers a day when you could stop the murders but fighting for abortion to be illegal instead? If you cut off the problem from it's source, then you really would try each mother + person who performed the abortion for murder, as abortion would finally be against the law.

If the killing the fetus isn't murder, than why does murdering a pregnant woman count as two murders?

[Rttennis]

Because that very same act, the Laci Peterson Act, specifically states that an abortion is not a part of the double murder issue. That is the law. Google it (I would, but I am on my iPod ATM getting ready for bed). :)

And your first paragraph brings us back to the question: should abortion be flat out illegal in all cases? I do not believe so based on all that I have provided in this debate.

[Meg]

Consider the following scenario (and a little bit of anatomy trivia): In a normal pregnancy, when a baby is conceived, it travels down the woman's fallopian tube from the ovary into the uterus. However, there have been many documented cases of an ectopic pregnancy, where the baby does not make down to the uterus, but gets stuck in the fallopian tube. Treated, the baby must be "aborted." Left untreated, both the mother and the fetus would be killed. Treated or not, the baby is most likely not going to survive.

What's more "sacred": Allowing the mother to live and conceive another child by doing the treatment? Or fighting for the fetus's rights and killing both the mother and child? I hope you choose the second option; afterall, the fetus should "have the right to control their own body."

My friend had an ectopic pregnancy and had to have an abortion otherwise both her and the baby would have died.

I supported her decision because I didn't want to lose my friend.

[kay.vee]

No one in this entire thread has ever made the argument that an abortion would be "better" for the woman, and your case proves that point. As a pro-choice advocate, I have made the choice of not supporting abortion, and I have never stated that having an abortion is better than bearing a child. This is only a statement on why you should not have an abortion but not whether or not it should be illegal.
My points were not focused on what necessarily was said in this debate, but in all debates, from 1970 to now, for that was the focus of my research paper.


I am a Roman Catholic, and being on both sides of the debate in my lifetime, this argument is the oldest one in the books.

As I challenged all of the pro-life anti-abortion supporters out there in my previous post, contact your lawyer to seek an arrest warrant for the hundreds of thousands of parents and doctors who committed this heinous act. If you cannot do that, then this argument is mute.

The last number I heard was 1500 abortions a day in the United States. But you refuse to call for the trial of these murderous people? You have to be careful with this comparison as it does have major ramifications for doing so.
The Supreme Court only said that abortion is justified by the law, but not necessarily by morals. Abortion is not against the law, therefore arresting those who commit it would be unjust. But that doesn't mean that in a sense, abortion isn't murder. The dictionary defines murder as the killing of another human being. Why the Supreme Court has decided that this is not outright murder is beyond me.


Pick one: Smoking and drinking during the pregnancy is either "socially unacceptable" or "morally wrong"? Not both.

Second, two things. First, you know how I can tell the numbers were not actual stats? Because 77 + 33 does not equal 100%, so something seems wrong in the analysis. Second, so murder = wrong; abortion = wrong; but abortion = murder?

If that's the case, then Jello = dessert; Ice cream = dessert; therefore Jello = Ice cream. Same logic.

So tell me, how does this establish the hypocracy of the pro-choice movement?
Yes, smoking and drinking is both. Society views it as immoral, and therefore it is viewed as unacceptable.

Secondly, the statistic of 77% is accurate. If you were to have checked the sources I supplied, you would see that. The 33% was my own math error. Regardless, my point is only strengthened. Instead of saying "Assuming Pro-Choice advocates take up more than 33% of the population," my argument would be "Assuming Pro-Choice advocated take up more than 23% of the population." I suppose my math error helped your argument more than it helped mine.

By definition, abortion would equal murder. Abortion is the killing of the fetus. That is murder. Murder is viewed as wrong. Also, you can't use your logic, for "wrong" is an adjective, and "dessert" is a noun. That would be an unfair analysis. Using a fair analysis of my logic, it would be Phelps = Athletic; Athletic = Athlete; Phelps = Athlete. That proves true.

Lastly, this establishes a hypocritical viewpoint on the Pro-Choice side for if they say abortion is the killing of another human being (which would be murder), and they say murder is wrong, but abortion is okay, then they are being hypocritical in their logic.

[Meg]

Why didn't you address Rttennis's point about actopic pregnancy huh? Because it owns you? I thought as much.

[Rttennis]

The Supreme Court only said that abortion is justified by the law, but not necessarily by morals. Abortion is not against the law, therefore arresting those who commit it would be unjust. But that doesn't mean that in a sense, abortion isn't murder. The dictionary defines murder as the killing of another human being. Why the Supreme Court has decided that this is not outright murder is beyond me.

Because it isn't murder, and your definition of murder is incorrect. Allow me to direct your attention to actual definition of murder according to Merriam-Webster:


Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: \ˈmər-dər\
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>

"Malice aforethought" means bad intentions or motive. Does the mother go into the clinic with the evil Joker look plotting that killing her fetus is going to give her the million dollar life insurance policy? Break up the love affair between A and B? Or whatever typical motives there are in a murder scene?

Yes, there are those who take advantage of the system, and shame on them for doing so. But as I have said before, some mothers have to make a choice based on medical circumstances (such as in an ectopic pregnancy). Does that make them "murderers"? If the answer is no, then abortion is not murder. If the answer is yes, then by definition, they HAVE broken the law and we should arrest them accordingly. However, since you stated that murder is "justified by the law" while murder is considered a crime, therefore, abortion is not murder.

But now I am just getting into technicalities, so let me move on.


By definition, abortion would equal murder. Abortion is the killing of the fetus. That is murder. Murder is viewed as wrong. Also, you can't use your logic, for "wrong" is an adjective, and "dessert" is a noun. That would be an unfair analysis. Using a fair analysis of my logic, it would be Phelps = Athletic; Athletic = Athlete; Phelps = Athlete. That proves true.

Fine, my apologies. Then let's use an adjective. Let's assume that a puppy is as "cute as a button." (We all love puppies, right?) :P

Puppy = cute; button = cute; therefore puppy = button? A puppy is a button? o.O

NOW, saaaaaame logic!


Lastly, this establishes a hypocritical viewpoint on the Pro-Choice side for if they say abortion is the killing of another human being (which would be murder), and they say murder is wrong, but abortion is okay, then they are being hypocritical in their logic.

That's because you and I have already established a clearer definition of murder. Not every mother has bad intentions to abort a child. Some mothers need to (such as in an ectopic pregnancy which no one answered by the way), but does that make them a "murderer"?

[OmegaMan]

((butting my head in))

Wow! Impressive debate thread!

Just like to say that the "abortion" involved in an ectopic pregnancy is NOT considered to be an abortion like, anywhere on Earth. it's considered saving the mom's life and is always legal.

You can't use that as an argument FOR abortion, considering ectopic pregnancies are very rare, and terminating the pregnancy in that situation is not an abortion.


bye

[Rttennis]

((butting my head in))

Wow! Impressive debate thread!

Just like to say that the "abortion" involved in an ectopic pregnancy is NOT considered to be an abortion like, anywhere on Earth. it's considered saving the mom's life and is always legal.

You can't use that as an argument FOR abortion, considering ectopic pregnancies are very rare, and terminating the pregnancy in that situation is not an abortion.


bye

Except in the procedure where a mother is given medication known as methotrexate that is used in standard medical abortion procedures, correct?

And I know Vinnie! This debate is by far the best and most in depth out of any Habbohut has done in a long time! :D

[OmegaMan]

Except in the procedure where a mother is given medication known as methotrexate that is used in standard medical abortion procedures, correct?




I can't say for sure on specifics. But your argument is still pointless. No where in this thread has anyone said that a pregnancy should not be terminated in the mother's life is in jeopardy.

Is there anyone that does NOT agree that in the case of a potentially fatal ectopic pregnancy (some can in fact be corrected if discovered in time), the pregnancy should be terminated in order to save the life of the mother, be it by methotrexate or any other procedure?

I doubt it.

[kay.vee]

I am going to ignore your "murder" debate, because we are using very different definitions. My definition is from Dictionary.com. Yours does not seem to be from there.

Fine, my apologies. Then let's use an adjective. Let's assume that a puppy is as "cute as a button." (We all love puppies, right?) :P

Puppy = cute; button = cute; therefore puppy = button? A puppy is a button? o.O

NOW, saaaaaame logic!
As for your analogy, I don't quite understand the process of button being cute. But I suppose that is beyond the point. My reason voided.

[Rttennis]

Yeah, kay.vee, you and I are just being too technical here. Let's move on and get to the meat of the matter.

And the button being cute, come on!!! Buttons are TOTALLY cute! I guess you really have to learn to appreciate them. :P

[kay.vee]

What's the topic of this anyway? Are we debating whether abortion is legally wrong? Because legally, it's right. Are we debating whether abortion is morally wrong? That's controversal. Are we debating whether abortion is murder? That depends on what definition you use for "murder."

[Maria]

What's the topic of this anyway? Are we debating whether abortion is legally wrong? Because legally, it's right. Are we debating whether abortion is morally wrong? That's controversal. Are we debating whether abortion is murder? That depends on what definition you use for "murder."

touche. i think we're debating everything except the first one

[Loodile]

definately a no. god created that baby for a purpose; and each baby has a purpose or meaning in the world. What if a baby wanted to live but had no choice except abortion because of the decision someone else made for it?

[Whalesir]

Not everyone believes in god

[Keir]

definately a no. god created that baby for a purpose; and each baby has a purpose or meaning in the world. What if a baby wanted to live but had no choice except abortion because of the decision someone else made for it?

If god created the baby why do women have cramps every month?

Secondly, the baby didn't want anything because it was incapable of want at that stage of life.

And if each baby has a purpose what's the point of stillborns or the children who were born only to be instantly wiped out when america nuked Japan?

This is an ethics debate, not a religious one.

[Loodile]

Well sorry to bring religious matters into this, but I'm still against this in every way. Cramps are part of a woman's nature, yes. Next, what if the baby wanted something more when it grew up? Ever thought about what could have been. As for the nuking in Japan, we had no say over that; or at least alot of us didn't. It happened, and we can't take it back. Nobody ever thinks about the millions of lives that are lost unless it's in our own country.

[Rttennis]

What's the topic of this anyway? Are we debating whether abortion is legally wrong? Because legally, it's right. Are we debating whether abortion is morally wrong? That's controversal. Are we debating whether abortion is murder? That depends on what definition you use for "murder."

As far as my religious beliefs, I, like many pro-life and pro-choice people out there, believe that the abortion procedure is inhumane. Being a Catholic, I believe the baby's life takes precedent over the mother's, and I do believe that a baby receives human rights at the moment of conception. Having said that, many cultures and religions believe the opposite, that a mother's life takes precedent over the baby.

As far as the murder question, I think from what I have learned in this debate is that while it's easy to say "it's murder", you really can't without looking at the big picture. If it was "murder", why are we even debating this?

My philosophical conclusion is that since the abortion issue is so big, why should I impose my religious beliefs on someone else on this enormous issue? There's more to it then what can be seen, and I believe people should look into their hearts, minds, and their Creator (if they believe in one) to find the answer to this difficult question. That's why I am pro-choice.

[Loodile]

I like the idea. I've never heard of pro-choice but it's a new word for my vocabulary.

[Rttennis]

Yes Jasmine - Pro-choice is basically the idea that a woman has the right to decide what is right for her and the baby. They are "in favor" (pro) of choices for the mother.

If I wanted everyone to take one thing out of this reply, it's this: pro-choice is not pro-abortion. ;)

[Loodile]

Lol, alright. Nice way to wrap up a 6 page debate ;)

[Rttennis]

Amen to that Jasmine! Amen to that!

[kay.vee]

Rttenis, now that the debate has apparently come to an end, are you in support of abortion or not?

[Rttennis]

It hasn't come to an end; I don't think it ever will come to an end (unless someone closes this thread :P). There's so much to talk about and move forward on.

To answer your question, no and yes. No, I don't support the procedure of abortion (why would anyone support that), but yes in the sense that why should my answer of "no" be imposed on everyone else? It should be the choice of the mother and everyone involved as to what the future should hold for her and her baby, even if that means abortion.

As I said from my first post in this debate, the question is not whether or not you support abortion, but whether you are pro-choice or pro-life. :)

[kay.vee]

As I said from my first post in this debate, the question is not whether or not you support abortion, but whether you are pro-choice or pro-life. :)

Psh, I just skipped the first three pages and jumped right in the debate =p

I like how I lasted three pages of this debate thinking it was about the support of abortion or not.

[Rttennis]

It's a tough question, and I've really had to look into this myself. I'm with you there!

Not sure if I said this or not, great job on the research paper on abortion! You obviously have a lot of passion and understanding of this issue, and I salute you for that! :)

[kay.vee]

It's a tough question, and I've really had to look into this myself. I'm with you there!

Not sure if I said this or not, great job on the research paper on abortion! You obviously have a lot of passion and understanding of this issue, and I salute you for that! :)

Haha, thank you. I am somewhat disappointed for my teacher not correcting my math error with that 33% thing. But I guess there's a reason she's not a math teacher. Haha.

So where do we start with this debate now? It's a never ending debate...

[Loodile]

I think where we should start off, is that everyone has a different view point on abortion, so what we think, is just another thought out of millions of people; unless we put it out there for everyone to know how we feel about the situation.